Curse

HDS · Feb 18, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

According to HDS, if you are shot, it is your own responsability for not being able to avoid the bullet. If you could but didn't manage to, it's all your fault.

Yet again incorrect, according to me if you kick an anrgy guy with a gun in the nuts he will shoot you and it will have been your fault.

Maxiemonster · Feb 18, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

Yet again incorrect, according to me if you kick an anrgy guy with a gun in the nuts he will shoot you and it will have been your fault.

That's kinda different situation..

You're saying that people are 'forced' into this because they can't get money? If they feel forced, it's because of themselfs, because they think they need more money, and start scamming. If they'd had a gun in their face by a guy saying "I'll pull the trigger if you don't start scamming people right now!" they'd be forced, but in this case, they're not.

Nawn Centz · Feb 18, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

As long as there are people who are able to be scammed, there will be scammers.

HDS · Feb 18, 2006, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxiemonster

That's kinda different situation..

You're saying that people are 'forced' into this because they can't get money? If they feel forced, it's because of themselfs, because they think they need more money, and start scamming. If they'd had a gun in their face by a guy saying "I'll pull the trigger if you don't start scamming people right now!" they'd be forced, but in this case, they're not.

They may feel forced because of others.

Another analogy wih the bullet would be:

It IS your fault if you walk into a gang shootout instead of avoiding it when you could have easily done so b sparing 5 seconds time.

Blue Steel · Feb 18, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Just a quick lecture in legal principles, for fun:

1. The law does provide a remedy to fraud, and victims of scams are entitled to relief: They CAN get back every penny they lost in a court of law if they can carry the burden of proof and establish that a scam occurred (the reason many people do not get back money sent to scammers of every ilk is because there are no assets left to enforce a judgment against; the morons who steal are also generally bad about the use and preservation of wealth)

2. The common law of England and the basis of most American jurisprudential criminal legal systems distinguishes between crimes that are excused and those that are justified. In short, if you steal a loaf of bread because you are starving, you probably won't go to jail, but you can bet that the court could require you to pay back the cost of the bread as soon as you are able.

Diablo™ · Feb 18, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

It IS your fault if you walk into a gang shootout instead of avoiding it when you could have easily done so b sparing 5 seconds time.

How can anyone tell there will be a gang shootout in 5 seconds? The victim is called an "innocent bystander" unless they had prior knowledge of when and where there will be a shoot out.

lord_shar · Feb 18, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by eom

I think this thread should be stickied.

I saw one guy claim that the highest paying positions in this country are filled by the most honest people, and some other guy cites a lawyer as his expert witness on morality and ethics.
I may never see another thread like this again.

...<SNIP>...

Not entirely accurate, but I think you get the picture. Not every CEO is bad, but when a high ranking corporate executive betrays everyone's trust, there's always hell to pay. BTW, the above doesn't apply to politics, for very obvious reasons

EDIT: If any poster want to make a point, it's better not to use analogies... the practice never works very well. Just explain your personal perspective in a concise, point-blank manner. It's not that difficult to write in an expository form. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but it's very difficult to follow hypothetical stories as opposed to the bare facts.

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Feb 18, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Scamming is unethical, but what I find even more disturbing is the mindset which supports that sort of behavior. "It's the victims fault for being weak/stupid/careless/etc." Typically people who have this attitude have scammed themselves, and feel the need to justify it.

And just ftr, I have never been successfully scammed, but I've reported plenty who have tried with documenting screenies. With luck I've helped to close a few scammer accounts.

Diablo™ · Feb 18, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Steel

2. The common law of England and the basis of most American jurisprudential criminal legal systems distinguishes between crimes that are excused and those that are justified. In short, if you steal a loaf of bread because you are starving, you probably won't go to jail, but you can bet that the court could require you to pay back the cost of the bread as soon as you are able.

I agree, and learned something new

.

The law may be black and white, but retribution can be flexible. It definitely wouldn't make alot of sense if a starving bread-stealer recieves the same punishment as a homicidal maniac.

Loviatar · Feb 18, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

They may feel forced because of others.

how about giving some specific reasons that you feel scammers are justified in ripping people off?

not this vague causes stuff be specific in telling us when scamming is justified and why it is justified

and how are they possibly being forced and by what others?

if you cant justify it stop defending it

lord_shar · Feb 18, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

They may feel forced because of others.

I apologize if this sounds like an attack, but the above line of reasoning suggests jealousy as the person's motivation for scamming. Defrauding another player to better one's character's in-game finances is still an evil act. The more a person tolerates this behavior, the more he/she slips away from civil society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

Another analogy wih the bullet would be:

It IS your fault if you walk into a gang shootout instead of avoiding it when you could have easily done so b sparing 5 seconds time.

Hypothetical analogies are useless for making any direct point. Stories are for Mother Goose. If you want to make a point, just stay what that point is, then follow it up with a clear explanation of how you arrived at the conclusion.

storm of daeth · Feb 18, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

ok this is my opinion on scammers go ahead and flame me all you want
but here i go

scammers are the lowest dirtiest pices of crap in gw but they are the trickiest, i mean scamming in pretty much just another profession a game just wouldnt be the same without the cirminals. i think scammers shouldnt be able to be banned as its just a decision they made its the player who got scammeds fault for not being careful or taking their time with the trade. personally to keep myself from being scammed i always make sure the other guy accepts first and then i check to see if its the same item with the same stats.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Feb 18, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

My opinions:

Scammers:
Bad people, very bad.
Should be punished for what they did.

Scammed people:
Unfortunate people.
Sometimes however it is a case of carelessness.
Simply need to be more careful, and not doing things in a hurry.

Lord Iowerth · Feb 18, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

This thread is very interesting, I think i've read every post twice or more ... the thing that is still killing me (besides the hilarious analogies

) is there are still some folks out there saying: "It's the person getting scammed who is to blame for being careless" ... now, i'll save you the horror of throwing another analogy in here, but this just seems ludicrous to me ... not even the good kind of "oh that was odd, lol" ludicrous either, but the "what the hell is wrong with you?" ludicrous.

There are fraudulent companies (REAL WORLD scammers) out there who, every day, scam the country's elderly ... why? They are an easy target. They come from a generation where you could trust people for the most part, are sometimes a little forgetful, and can't really do much to fight back. Are they to blame as well for being so easy to take advantage of? Honestly, ask yourself that question.

Not to imply that there are many elderly playing Guild Wars, mind you, but the concept is the same. Those who are new, those who are not as GWeducated, those who are trusting: these are the people who get scammed. Is it their fault? NO. The only way to truly combat this type of behavior is through education of the masses: something that this site does very well.

Diablo™ · Feb 18, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Wanna know a real scam? Coffins.

You can buy em, but you cant use em... not while you're alive at least...

storm of daeth · Feb 18, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

ok trusting people maybe scammed but they have to learn to survive and plz stop talking about elderly people were talking about a game right now. the first time you get scammed you might just be too trusting second time maybe the same case but by the third time you should wise up to people scammers are the ones who know how to take advatage of opportunities

Diablo™ · Feb 18, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

I think we've already reached the conclusion that victims of scams are partially responsible for being too casual in an environment sprawling with scammers. We're just addressing that these "opportunities" are not all viable methods of making profit.

There's a difference between taking an advantage, and exploiting one.

Nyax Soulreaper · Feb 18, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Wanna know a real scam? Coffins.

You can buy em, but you cant use em... not while you're alive at least...

lol good point

ive only read a couple of posts, and i think i have a general idea of what people are trying to say. ive heard a quote before (maybe some of u have heard it),

"fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" - not sure who it is from, but i think it proves a good point in this discussion IMO. i can easily see a scam take place like selling characters. if you get scammed once, that person is a 'fool', if you get scammed again, he/she's not the only one to blame. however thats IMO, no comments needed if you think otherwise

generik · Feb 18, 2006, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxiemonster

It's kinda lame that you can actually earn alot of money on scamming. You buy something for 40g because the one you're buying from thought it was 40K still earns you 39K 960g, and yes, people fall for this scam very easily. Even though people getting scammed are rather stupid, scamming is a lame thing, so don't start with it. Making use of common mistakes isn't a good thing, you might think "Woohoo! Another way to make money!", but you might've made a 10 year old boy cry because he was just a bit to hasty with buying your items. If you scam, think of that 10 year old boy every time, if you still continue to scam, hope it'll make you feel bad, since it should.

Getting scammed - Stupid.
Scamming - Heartless and selfish.

Hey, for all you know the scam might make that 30 year old single loser cry... and then spurs him to realise what a true loser he is, reassess his life, stand strong, participate in "The biggest loser", and win a million dollars.

If you got scammed, take the lesson and move on with it. It's not the end of the world, and of course most importantly, admit that it was partly your fault and LEARN.

The biggest problem today is people nowadays are so afraid to take the blame for anything. Case in point, why is the average IQ score 100? Well, it would be very hard to explain to people that their little Timmy only score 70 points on intelligence isn't it, but if it is hundred, they think it is "100 points!" and go off happy and contented. People are all so stupid.

Savio · Feb 18, 2006, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

The biggest problem today is people nowadays are so afraid to take the blame for anything. Case in point, why is the average IQ score 100? Well, it would be very hard to explain to people that their little Timmy only score 70 points on intelligence isn't it, but if it is hundred, they think it is "100 points!" and go off happy and contented. People are all so stupid.

It's at 100 because it just makes it easier than saying "Your IQ is 1.35482." IQs are for the most part irrelevant and wrong anyway.

That aside, a scam may be in part because the scammed person is negligent or not paying attention, but the scammer willfully takes part in it.